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Hron battle
pitika: What about Hron in february 1945 in southern Slovakia it was part of German operation Sudwind on Slovak territory? In vlleage Kamenin, there is a monument to Soviet tanksmen. Here is the article on Slovak web already translated to English. If somebody wants to translate it to Russian, our Admin will be glad to post on Web Russian version too. http://www.druhasvetova.sk/view.php?nazevclanku=struggle-for-the-hron-bridgehead-and-operation-sudwind&cisloclanku=2007120002 Peter aka Pitika
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Белик Сай Хан: Hi Peter! I shall look that is in Russian sources on this theme. Белик Сай Хан
pitika: Yes it will be interesting. Thanks.
Белик Сай Хан: pitika пишет: What about Hron in february 1945 in southern Slovakia it was part of German operation Sudwind on Slovak territory? In vlleage Kamenin, there is a monument to Soviet tanksmen. Here is the article on Slovak web already translated to English. If somebody wants to translate it to Russian, our Admin will be glad to post on Web Russian version too. http://www.druhasvetova.sk/view.php?nazevclanku=struggle-for-the-hron-bridgehead-and-operation-sudwind&cisloclanku=2007120002 Peter aka Pitika Hi Peter! Я нашел несколько боевых приказов по этой теме. Но данных о потерях у меня нет.
Белик Сай Хан: pitika пишет: What about Hron in february 1945 in southern Slovakia it was part of German operation Sudwind on Slovak territory? In vlleage Kamenin, there is a monument to Soviet tanksmen. Here is the article on Slovak web already translated to English. If somebody wants to translate it to Russian, our Admin will be glad to post on Web Russian version too. http://www.druhasvetova.sk/view.php?nazevclanku=struggle-for-the-hron-bridgehead-and-operation-sudwind&cisloclanku=2007120002 Hi Peter! I should tell, that the beginning of a material very much ideologyс. It does not do honour to the historian. In the end the curtsey, say is made and the western authors too were mistaken a little.... 375th infantry division (major-general V. D. Karpukhin) rifle, 375 стрелковая дивизия Я буду читать и анализировать текст в свободное время дальше. К сожалению в советских документах названия городов иногда звучат иначе. Белик Сай Хан
pitika: Белик Сай Хан пишет: Я буду читать и анализировать текст в свободное время дальше. К сожалению в советских документах названия городов иногда звучат иначе. What is confusing for historians from others countries is that area was populated by Hungarians and Slovaks so sometimes there are Hungarians names in Soviet or German reports, sometimes on German maps even German equivalent of the name as this part of the country was part of Austria Hungary before 1918. Белик Сай Хан пишет: Hi Peter! I should tell, that the beginning of a material very much ideologyс. It does not do honour to the historian. In the end the curtsey, say is made and the western authors too were mistaken a little.... Now by western , you mean western western or Slovak too? :) To the ideology. Well... How to start? Problem is that author was basically right. Two biggest setbacks of Soviet army and Czechoslovak army corps in Slovakia were probably indeed Hron for soviets and Liptovsky Mikulas. And both this facts were during communist era somehow "forgotten". For example after brigade of Czechoslovak army corps captured Liptovsky Mikulas, they were expelled from town with heavy casualties by German contra attack and Germans were finally stopped for example with help of AA battery "maned" actually by Czechoslovak women. Why this happened? Because lack of experience of brigade commander and because men of this brigade were freshly drafted men from liberated Slovak territory without fighting experience. Did communist told us what happened? No. Same is the problem with Kamenin or Hron bridghead. I think it was not huge Soviet loss but it was setback. Same for Germans. It was a local Victory but not major as their plan was to pursued soviet troops behind the Hron river but because of previous losses had to abandon that plan. What is problem is that again as with early Czechoslovak loss of Liptovsky Mikulas in start of 1945, this Soviet setback was by communist propaganda hidden. So this is my explanation why I don't think author used too much ideology. Maybe it looks so because of translation from Slovak to English. Anyway. What was author trying to do was to explain today reader what happened during war and why we didn't hear during communist era too much about biggest tank battle on Slovak territory. And believe me we didn't. I was interested in WWII history since I was kid. I heard and found a lot of books on Dukla, liberation of Prague or Ostrava operation. But Hron bridgehead? Never. Same with Czechoslovak setback in Liptovsky Mikulas. I red Ludvik Svoboda's From Buzuluk to Prague when I was 10-11 years old a not because I had to but because I wanted. Did he mention what and why happened in Liptovsky Mikulas? No he didn't. And the ideology of the books? Communist were for example making almost criminals from Czechs and Slovaks who fought for Czechoslovakia on wrong side. And by wrong side I don't mean Germans. Wrong side for them was... France, Great Britain etc. Белик Сай Хан пишет: цитата: 375th infantry division (major-general V. D. Karpukhin) rifle, 375 стрелковая дивизия Do you mean there is problem with translation стрелковая дивизия as a infantry division? Well: 1. in original Slovak article is used "STRELECKA DIVIZIA" what is Slovak equivalent for стрелковая дивизия. 2. the translations on the web site are done not by professional translators but by enthusiastic people who want to share some knowledge about WWII history in Slovakia. 3.Do you think it's a big mistake translate стрелковая дивизия as a infantry division? Now I mean from your look on it as Russian. Does Russian language or Soviet (Russian) army used different word for "infantry division"? If yes and you think it should be changed in English translation of Slovak article I will contact Admin. Thank you for comments.
Белик Сай Хан: pitika пишет: Do you mean there is problem with translation стрелковая дивизия as a infantry division? Well: 1. in original Slovak article is used "STRELECKA DIVIZIA" what is Slovak equivalent for стрелковая дивизия. 2. the translations on the web site are done not by professional translators but by enthusiastic people who want to share some knowledge about WWII history in Slovakia. 3.Do you think it's a big mistake translate стрелковая дивизия as a infantry division? Now I mean from your look on it as Russian. Does Russian language or Soviet (Russian) army used different word for "infantry division"? If yes and you think it should be changed in English translation of Slovak article I will contact Admin. Thank you for comments. Rifle division is a traditional name Soviet rifle (strelkovaya) division and in the western, English-speaking literature. As we see Russian and the Slovak of the name are similar. Sound similar. Since 1920 in the USSR, and then and Russia the term is used Rifle division.
Белик Сай Хан: pitika пишет: Now by western , you mean western western or Slovak too? :) To the ideology. Well... How to start? Problem is that author was basically right. Two biggest setbacks of Soviet army and Czechoslovak army corps in Slovakia were probably indeed Hron for soviets and Liptovsky Mikulas. And both this facts were during communist era somehow "forgotten".............. I think historians of the communist era left far behind. They brought their contribution in studying of the problem and some of their results can be applied even now (that time honest historians existed too). However after destruction of the Socialism system 20 years passed. The history moved forward. Some problems were kept in secret not only by Socialistic regimes, but also on the West. Many war crimes are not admitted for example in Japan. But historians must be above this. To estimate events without ideological affect. Only this way makes possible to draw objective picture of events which took place 60+ years ago. Regards/
pitika: OK, Alex. Thanks for explanation. I will try to contact our Admin. But as she is very busy woman I don't know how fast she will be able to do the change. ;)
Белик Сай Хан: pitika пишет: OK, Alex. Thanks for explanation. I will try to contact our Admin. But as she is very busy woman I don't know how fast she will be able to do the change. ;) Peter, I suggest to not discuss questions of ideology. At each of us the opinion. We shall try to solve historical problems simply. I have not seen Russian sources in this material. At me is a little. I can lay out the text. But I still have very few free time. You will be capable to translate them on Slovak (from Russian)? Regards.
pitika: Hello Alex, I should be able to translate. Bye.
pitika: BTW Alex, author of the article is critical not only to communist historians but also to western ones (British, German and American). What he was trying to do in my opinion was to explain what was going on in historical description of this battle in past 60 years And then he is giving description of battle which is even with lack of sources from Soviet side not bad. And of course, Alex, the site is not professional historians web. Most of us active there are just amateurs trying to find the answers. If you are able to provide description of the battle and some soviet reports I will be glad to translate from Russian to Slovak. Peter
Белик Сай Хан: Для начала два боевых донесения: №1 БОЕВОЕ ДОНЕСЕНИЕ КОМАНДОВАНИЯ 1-Й ГВАРДЕЙСКОЙ АРМИИ КОМАНДУЮЩЕМУ ВОЙСКАМИ 4-ГО УКРАИНСКОГО ФРОНТА О ХОДЕ БОЕВЫХ ДЕЙСТВИЙ ПО ОСВОБОЖДЕНИЮ ЧЕХОСЛОВАКИИ 19 января 1945 г. Войска армии с 8.00 19.1.45 силами 1 чак, 11 и 107 ск возобновили наступление в западном и северо-западном направлениях. В течение дня, ведя наступательные бои, войска армия продвинулись от 10 до 25 км, наступая по фронту до 60 км. Освободили 70 населенных пунктов, среди них узел шоссейных и железных дорог город Прешов, крупные населенные пункты: Дубова, Дернина, Бельвежа, Бартошовце, Осиков, Слов. Раславице, Дэмята, Тулочик, Капушаны, Ниж. Шебеш и жел.-дор. станции Осиков, Слов. Рославице, Тульчик, Капушаны, Келемень. К исходу дня войска армии вели бои на рубеже: I чак к 19.00 ведет бой на рубеже: Вышовадка, Ниж. Полянка, Чарно, Беловежа, Комаров. II ск наступал частями 276 и 271 сд и к 19.00 вел бой на рубеже: Решов, Яновце, Бартошовце, Гертник, Шиба. 226 сд после марша сосредоточена в районе Дуковце, Желмаковце, Кукова, Крагуевце. 107 ск наступал частями 161 и 129 сд, к 19.00 вел бой на рубеже: Дэмьята, Тульчик, Финчице, Прешов. 167 сд после марша сосредоточена в районе Хмелев, Талка, Мегеш, Ганушовце, Влача. 311 сд, армейский резерв, после марша сосредоточена в районе Завадка, Товарне, Кладзани, Бреков. Ущерб, нанесенный противнику: уничтожено до 500 солдат и офицеров. Захвачено 12 орудий, 7 станковых пулеметов, до 200 винтовок и автоматов, военный обоз до 60 повозок, 2 склада с боеприпасами. Захвачено в плен 290 солдат и офицеров. Трофеи в г. Прешов подсчитываются. Командующий войсками Член Военного совета 1-й гвардейской армии 1-й гвардейской армии гв. генерал-полковник А Гречко гв. генерал-полковник К. Исаев Начальник штаба 1-й гвардейской армии гв. генерал-лейтенант Батюня №2 БОЕВОЕ ДОНЕСЕНИЕ КОМАНДОВАНИЯ 18-Й АРМИИ КОМАНДУЮЩЕМУ ВОЙСКАМИ 4-ГО УКРАИНСКОГО ФРОНТА О ХОДЕ БОЕВЫХ ДЕЙСТВИЙ ПО ОСВОБОЖДЕНИЮ ЧЕХОСЛОВАКИИ 28 января 1945 г. Первое. Противник перед фронтом армии, прикрываясь арьергардами, в течение 28.1.45 под воздействием наших войск отходил в западном направлении. На своем пути отхода взрывает мосты, разрушает, заваливает и минирует дороги. Второе. Войска армии в течение истекших суток продолжали наступление. Сбивая арьергарды и преодолевая многочисленные инженерные препятствия противника, в условиях бездорожья и сильных снежных заносов, с боями прошли до 23 км, овладели областным центром и важным курортным районом Чехословацкой республики — Поп рад, городом Кежмарок, сильными опорными пунктами обороны немцев и узлами коммуникаций. Кроме того, овладели 52 другими населенными пунктами, из них крупными: Любица, Гунцовце, Вел. Ломница, Вел. Славков, Матейевце, Спиш. Собота, Белька, Стража, Гановце, Кубахи, Викартовце, Грановица, Штявник, Грабушице, Жаковце, Врбов и ж.-д. ст.: Кежмарок, Гунцовце, Вел. Ломница, Велька, Завадка, Вид-рник. К 20.00 войска армии занимали положение: 159 УР — в течение дня совершал марш и к 17.00 сосредоточился в районе Спишска Бела. 1 чак: 3 чбр — 1 км с.-з. Стар. Лесна — юго-вост. окр. Дольн. Смоковец. 1 чбр — с выходом в район Кежмарок выведена во второй эшелон корпуса и [к] 20.00 сосредоточилась в районе Гунцовце, Вел. Ломница. 17 гв. ск: 8 сд — ведет бой за Лучивна. 138 сд — сев.-зап. и зап. окр. Викартовце. 24 сп — в районе Ленгаварты, Дравие, Куримяны (мой резерв). Третье. Войска армии в течение 28.1.45 уничтожили до 200 солдат и офицеров и 8 пулеметов противника. Захватили 300 пленных. По предварит [ельным] данным, захвачены трофеи: орудий — более 100, паровозов — 30, вагонов с военным имуществом — свыше 1000, пулеметов — 140, складов разных — 10, автомашин — 5001. Четвертое. Задачи войскам армии на 29.1.45 — шифром. Гастилович Колонин Брилев Продолжение следует....
pitika: Hello Alex, even if this 2 orders are not from area of Hron they are very interesting for me. 1st one is from area Presov (Presov is town near Kosice) 2nd is from my beloved High Tatras area and actually I think if 1 чак isn't for "cechoslovakij armejskij korpus" What should be "бр" for? Maybe"bronetankovoj polk"?
Белик Сай Хан: ЧАК - Чехословацкий армейский корпус - Czechoslovak army corps бр - Бригада Brigade, 3 чбр - 3 чехословацкая бригада гв.ск - гвардейский стрелковый корпус guards rifle corps Извини Петер, чуть позже я напишу значения терминов еще.
pitika: Thanks Alex, my fault sometimes I mestread Russian p not as latin r but latin p. :) What a stupid mistake of mine.
Белик Сай Хан: pitika пишет: What a stupid mistake of mine. All ОК. You know Russian on 100 % better, than I Slovak!
Белик Сай Хан: other......... ж.-д. ст - железнодорожная станция (railway stantion) сд - стрелковая дивизия сп - стрелковый полк (rifle regiment) с.-з. - north-west (северо-запад) УР - Укрепленный район (Fortified Region)
pitika: Many thanks Alex, one more if you can: юго-вост. окр. Дольн. Смоковец. - jugo vostochnyj okraj??? Dolnnyj Smokovec
Белик Сай Хан: pitika пишет: юго-вост. окр. Дольн. Смоковец. - jugo vostochnyj okraj??? Dolnnyj Smokovec Юго-восточная (South-Eastern) окраина Дольни Смоковец (город?).
pitika: Thank you very much for explanation Белик Сай Хан пишет: Дольни Смоковец (город?) In Slovak Dolny Smokovec. It is one of many turists centers in High Tatras. Few sanatoriums are there for patients with respiratory problems, allergies etc. Near by in Tatrianske Matliare is military sanatorium used during war too.
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